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Part of a series with my comments on Shades’ Skyrim backstory, for use in Spearthane. I may protect some of these posts if I detail specific quests.
I imagine TES V: Skyrim with these profiles for the city-states, and the main quest weaving these eight stories together into one comprehensive unit and one ending from eight viewpoints.
I’m not so interested in the one-ending approach. (1) If I write a sequel, I am comfortable either picking one ending, or as many as are not flatly contradictory, so no dragon breaks here. (2) I honestly think it’s lame and a waste of time to bother writing a story that can only end one way. If you’re creative enough to branch the story, why render the branches meaningless by merging them all together at the end?
That would keep the story consistent, but after the main quest there would be two or three city-states that would be no longer operational to the same state as before: governments would be deposed, sections of towns and the countryside would be knocked away, and large populations eliminated through genocide.
I plan an ethnocide in the backstory already (see From Aldmora to Empire), so I’d rather not add a genocide of a current people. These things take a long time to happen, and even if the empire is over the people are still used to its conventions.
The start of the game would be within a month of the Oblivion Crisis. The end of the game will fluctuate depending on the player’s speed, but the generally accepted finish will be listed in TES VI as two and a half to three years later. I’d prefer TES VI to take place at about the same time as Skyrim, but on the opposite side of the empire for perspective.
I agree with the general time frame. I’d like there to be enough time elapsed that the dust has settled, the enemy confirmed dispatched or just gone, and people are starting about their ordinary lives again. I don’t want so much time that any significant personal or political fallout from the crisis has been resolved.
Generally the main quest begins when you are accepted into a knightly organization in the service of a King or Queen.
I’d rather this be the midpoint or intermediate goal of your service to a Hold, to set up a final few public missions. There are many things you can do, to ingratiate yourself with a court and build your reputation, that can really benefit from being a nobody whom they may plausibly deny they know. Also, when you betray them, they can just cut their losses.
From the descriptions of the eight you can fairly well guess the kinds of missions they would send you on, but the standard guilds need to be worked into the storyline somewhat as well. The guilds I hope would rely on random quests and make these special quests available during the course of the main quest as you progress through it, such as the Dark Brotherhood.
I really like the idea of being able to kill anyone in the game, and I have no problem breaking quests as a result of random DB/MT assignments. Since I want there to be many paths through the game, and many different endings, shutting out even entire quest lines because you killed the wrong people is fine with me.
Three of the leaders of the city-states would be assassinated before three quarters of the main quest are over, as well as a dozen nobles, a score of political figures and many inhibitors. Not all of these need to be brotherhood jobs, but the flexible means of death would allow you to hire them for the job, do it yourself, or send your underlings depending on the message you want to convey.
+1 for vast changes to the political landscape, +1 for flexibility, +1 for actually feeling like you’re in charge.
The Fighters guild should be swamped with work in this post-crisis environment (not picking flowers), the Mages have ample opportunity for research and experimentation under several of the city-states,
Their first-hand experience against daedra should provide them with new battle strategies and tactics, and materials to study. We’ll have to decide whether the new liminal barriers sent back the daedra in fixed, equipment form as well. I’m inclined to say yes, otherwise daedric stuff will be everywhere, and that’s way too cliche and uber for me without a very good reason.
and the Thieves of course have never been in a better position to steal goods and information. Witch covens will largely be covered by Jsashe and fringe groups, necromancy has several footholds already in Skyrim but I would include soulsnare areas in mountain valleys where the dead can roam freely as part of the Necromancer’s faction.
I’m so over the good v evil Necromancer v Mages’ Guild storyline. I’d much rather incorporate and discuss the problems that arise as a result of letting only White Arts back in a new Department of Necromancy (eg, re-incorporate the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld).
Imperial legions and navy units operate with diminishing effectiveness as the Empire shows signs of crumbling and desertion becomes more widespread.
Excellent point. I like how subtle indications of a loosening of authority and discipline grow to justify big upheavals, coups, and revolutions. Even better if you can justify a bloodless coup.
Followup
My deal with the one ending is that the outside will see it as one ending, but depending on which of the city-states you are aligned with at that moment you see the ending differently. For some of the people you align with, your reward is death. For others you’re made a top advisor to the ruler, the head of their knightly guild, or chief liaison. Others in between you have a chance to run for your life to escape Skyrim, or just switch your allegiance.
The branches aren’t meaningless, but they would be covered up by the person who takes control of the country. History is written by the winner, and those who disagree with the winner are rolled over. Thus, the one ending.
So, depending on which faction wins, they each have a different way they treat you? Some glorify you, some kill you, and several steps between? This seems right. On top of this, I assume, which faction wins, and whether a faction wins, is determined by your actions. I’d like to have more ways to end the game than having a faction win. For examples, see the first three italicized paragraphs on this page. By ending, I mean the end of the political changes in the game, not necessarily the game itself.
The genocide is reflective of the racial tensions. Events will trigger spouts of racism where people of certain races are persecuted and tortured in the streets. Roving bands of troops coming upon travels who aren’t like them could kill them quickly and just ride on with nobody knowing who did it.
Good examples of realistic medieval behavior, but not of genocide. Full-on genocide still seems like overkill to me, without powerful motivations.
I like to work on the basis of motivations. Why, in this particular settlement, do they take the opportunity of the lack of Imperial authority to prosecute or even persecute a particular race? How does that community take it, strike back, or flee? How do the surrounding communities, of both races, admire or condemn stoicism, support or arm retribution, or house or take advantage of refugees? I think this can work on a small scale, as specific communities conflict, since Eastmarch won’t support little utopias like Bleaker’s Way when we have Nord aggression against the Redoran.
When I said the main quest starts when you join a knightly organization, I wasn’t meaning that you could join one when you choose to. They have to invite you in, so to get that invitation you must find a way to prove yourself useful. Winning tournaments would be one way, playing your connections to get to talk to the king is another way. Becoming well liked by the minor nobles can get you noticed as well, being famous for your powerful magical talents, being ruthlessly efficient at gathering information or resources. Effectively you would have to be established in the world before they would even consider you. A term of military service is always a plus, and the military would have units available for all kinds of characters.
I see lots of little quests here, with some interesting and natural motivations. If the object of most of these quests is to warn, impoverish, suppress, or hurt another faction, so much the better, since you will largely be able to build up your rep with one faction only by ticking off another. I don’t think a completely zero-sum game is necessary, though.
For example, military service against the Redoran should help your rep with a couple Holds, which can be mitigated by espionage for the Redoran against the very Holds that employ you. So, say a strike force from Windhelm cuts a bloody swath east from Dunmeth Pass, but are stopped and all-but-slaughtered by an ambush. Your battle prowess determined how many Dunmer died (for which your rep increases with some Holds), and your treachery caused the Nords’ death (for which your rep increases with the Redoran). (Oh, and Mephala/Sithis likes you bunches for the treachery and all the deaths.)
The deal with the necromancers isn’t an us vs them situation with the mage’s guild. I’m thinking of the Daggerfall system where the temple is the (in the eyes of the people) good guys, the necromancers are the bad guys, and the mages guild is comprised of both. The only time the mages guild would be against the necromancers is if the necromancers (who will mostly be guild members anyway) cause trouble somewhere or if a religious magician feels like stirring the pot. The mages guild I see is out for control, and the agendas it holds are the works of the individual guild leaders.
I like this better than the one-dimensional “because Traven said so” agenda of the Mages’ Guild in Oblivion. Have you read The Exodus and Dark Arts on Retrial? I’d like to incorporate both in Spearthane, and re-admit the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld into the restored Department of Necromancy. I think this still permits much conflict with those necromancers too indebted to the dark arts to take advantage of the Mages’ Guild’s white-art amnesty. It should also more clearly define the PC’s character for siding with the truly selfish or enslaved servants of the Worm God Mannimarco.
Each citizen belongs to a faction, and has a reputation. When that citizen dies, the corresponding faction blames your presence, and your reputation with that faction suffers by the reputation of the deceased.
For example:
The faction of Uriel is Haafinheim Partisan. The reputation of Uriel is 1. [These two sentences are actually code for the game. I love Inform 7.]
9:18 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim 0, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.
Uriel just bleeds.
…
9:23 am >z
Time passes.Uriel just bleeds.
Uriel dies.
9:24 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim -1, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.
Added a repute command to report your reputation. In this example, I backstabbed, looted, bound, and killed someone in a faction, and shouted myself from a city to a village.
9:22 am >repute
Army guard.
Assassin.
Rogue.
Tongue.Disliked in Haafinheim.
You have a reputation with each skill, group, or faction.
The 14 skills are unemployed [beggars], alchemist, army guard, assassin, craftsman, fighter, healer, mage, merchant, reader, rogue, ruler, tongue, and undead.
The 13 factions are unaligned [mediators], Eastmarch Partisan, Falkreath Partisan, Haafinheim Partisan, High Rock Partisan, Imperial Partisan, Northshore Partisan, Pale Partisan, Reach Partisan, Redoran Partisan, Rift Partisan, White Hold Partisan, and Winter Hold Partisan.
The 13 groups are ungrouped [negotiators], Mage’s Guild, Necromancers, Imperial Legion, Bandits, Dark Brotherhood, Morag Tong, Fighter’s Guild, Divine Clerics, Elder Council, College Faculty, Thieves’ Guild, and Greybeards.
You dont neccessarily need to have a different MQ for each race, but different stroy routes would be great. If an item is in a “Dunmer Only” Night club and you’re an orc, you might have to go in swinging an axe or sneak in.Not being allowed to stay the night in an Inn owned by an Anti-Argonian person might force you to ask for room and board at someone’s house, and they might require a favor like vandalizing a neighbor’s property which forces you down yet another path. Or you might opt to camp in the surrounding woods, at which point you meet a small band of fellow outcast beastfolk who want you to help them terrorize the town.
Being whisked away to start the game in a slave camp isnt a terrible idea, infact all the above ar ok ideas, as long as eventually you end up on the same MQ, in the same yet unique story line.
The whole point of this type of “dynamic plot” is REPLAYABILITY. If you ever play Arcanum (an awesome RPG) you will understand the value of REPLAYABILITY. Going through a game and having the anticipation of different experiences depending on who you are and the choices you make each time is a huge advantage.
I understand that a lot of people like to RP and so, playing through the same Oblivion over and over is ok with them, but not everyone loves RPing. AND even for RPers, the garuntee of different experiences should be something to look forward to.
Every time I play through the game, I would love the experience to be unique. Objectively unique.
I can remember when I played arcanum the 3rd time, as soon as I got to Tarant I went straight to my favorite pub, and I was screamed at and told to get the [censored] out. you know what was different? that 3rd time I decided to be a half-orc. I thought that was the coolest thing I had ever experienced in a video game. (although this could (and should) be avoidable/negotialbe by simply working hard to have high charisma and personality traits.
Also, dragon, the Oblivion construction set and the “plugin” concept proved that differing plot lines doesnt take up lots of space on a CD. You’re not really creating NEW material. just different story lnes, different dialogue, etc.
For there to be different tracks, each track must in some way advance the main plot, close the scene in one of several different ways. Scene ends when thing restored or thing destroyed or thing given or thing tossed in the sea or thing kept; however it got there, stolen from living person, looted from corpse, stolen from nightstand, bought, bartered, given as reward for favor; but how it was retrieved and how it was disposed of determines some thing about the environment, politics, factions rep, quests available. Similar considerations for non-fetch quests.
Some things you do should be relatively fatal to the main or many side quests: for example, if you kill a child of a certain race, no-one of that race will talk with you to give you a quest, instead they’ll actively hunt you down you until you’re dead. Even attacking a child of a certain race should make everyone in that race aggressive towards you.
For Skyrim if they have it there, I would like the npc’s to have a greater sense of hospitality. If the winters can kill or harm, they could take greater concern for their fellow man on the road. The Eskimos were supposed to let a traveler snuggle with their wives in the night for warmth, kindness of that sort. Also just knocking on the door and asking for a place to rest should be an option, you need to heal sometime and you might have a chance to return the favor. At times when you have a home you could let people in to have a nap or offer them care. It can increase your disposition with the people you help, and give you a good reputation. Shades
Check for consistency with Viking rules for hospitality. Greeks were very big on this. The rules would be strictly followed in isolated halls, well-regarded in villages, usual practice (especially for your factions) in towns, and apply only to your factions in cities. “The player has a number called faction reputation.”
Competitors for Quests need to brought in TES V. Since Skyrim is in Turmoil, there could be a bounty hunter type system asking you to track down – for example- a Necromancer terrorizing local inhabitants. But if you don’t get the bounty quick, another Bounty Hunter may take the kill and you fail the quest. If you wanted to bring Choices and Consequences into this, a bounty might revolve around a political target, but when you arrive, it seems like he is the victim of a political purge and you may get several options with what to do with him.A. Sorry, But I need the money *NPC’s name*. I’ll have to kill you.
B. Come on, hand yourself in to the authorities, they will find you anyway. -Requires Speechcraft Check.
C. Hmm, you seem to be the victim of a purge and a decent guy. My principles won’t allow me to kill you. I will take my leave.
D. This is wrong. Come on I’ll help you escape. (Truth) – Requires Speechcraft Check
E. This is wrong. Come on I’ll help you escape. (Lie)- Requires Speechcraft Check
F. I just like the killing part hahaha. – For the Psychos amongst us.Its badly written but you get the idea. The “good” options will probably disgrace you as a Bounty Hunter but you may gain reputation with certain groups for your actions. Whereas the more selfish options will increase your Bounty Hunter Rep but make certain groups despise you and even try to kill you. This could make for a fluid political setting. Tyrion1
“The player has a number called faction reputation.” Increase for quests succeeded, enemies attacked, enemies killed, enemies robbed (when donated to faction), people recruited to faction, property donated to faction. Decrease for faction members attacked, faction members killed, faction members robbed (when they catch you), quests failed, property stolen (as opposed to shared) from faction houses, property destroyed from faction houses.
