Ruled by King Hrothgar, this city-state has come upon hard times.

I assume the name “Hrothgar” is traditional, honorary, or shorthand title for the area ruled. Not a real genealogical name reflecting an unbroken line of descent from whichever Aldmoran named the mountain.

The damaging droughts, floods, harsh winters, and devastating fires have left them short on supplies and living season by season.

By floods, I assume swollen rivers raging from ice melt on the mountains. We’re quite a bit above sea level for most of this kingdom.

The economic hit has caused a slow trickle of emigration, though a strange phenomenon has occurred with this situation concerning the so-called Witch-Queen of Whiterun. Though originally thought a menace [by the court of Whiterun and village elders], public disposition has swayed to favor Jsashe the Witch and effective control of the county lies with her.

Why, will surely be key to a quest. What is the source of her power? With whom does she deal? Why does the public favor her? Especially with the daedra gone, what boons does she grant, and what power does she wield?

If things go very well for her, she might be a candidate for the Imperial throne, but she starts with a relatively low(est?) and localized reputation.

Once called the Imperial City of Skyrim, the damaged grandeur of the city still shows a visage of its former self, though certain parts of the city have fallen into blight quicker than others.

I thought Windhelm had the palace? Or does the title refer to the population of Imperials?

The decline in population created a thinner demographic of non-natives, though a notable minority of Imperials is still present. The great walls still stand firm and within them the poorest sectors have been abandoned.

Providing meeting-places, housing, and storage of materials for the most wretched, illegal, furtive, and fugitive elements of society.

Former residents of the outer curtain have taken to squatting in the better appointed sectors and housing choices as they become available, though the overall population sits at sixty percent of the total a score of years ago.

Perhaps some conflict here between squatters and family branches coming to claim abandoned or sold property of richer cousins, and find safety within city walls.

The situation of Jsashe has caused a general polarization of the population. Those who exalt her generally live outside the most regulated areas where the Hrothgar still holds control; outlying villages, refugee camps, and the nomadic Nords who still observe tribal practices.

Is there a link between most traditional Nord practices and Jsashe’s witchcraft, or just the susceptibility of the superstitious mind?

Where is Jsashe based? Blackmoor/Darkmoor would make a certain amount of sense, since it’s physically most accessible to external influences, yet still in Whiterun. It’s overland from The Reach and Northshore, and upriver from Haafenheim.

Hrothgar has taken a strong stance against this inner threat, and has tended to look the other way when his infantry disposes of small bands of her followers. By his duty he still sends supplies and priests to the refugee camps to care for his displaced people, but he also uses this chance to gain information on the situation. Suspicion is overtaken by desperation often enough the people depend on whatever they can get, and but in the cities the suspicion of outsiders is hardly restrained.

Very good setup for disrespect and conflict.

Ancient rivalry with Dawnstar has been put aside in this long time of crisis, but it has hardly favored mercy or forgetfulness among the nobles. Given the history, they bite their tongues at the thought of a steady agreement between the city-states. They feel their restraint shown is defiant of their very natures. At this time though, necessity outweighs bloodlust.

From whence came this ancient rivalry? I imagine Dawnstar once the capital and first-smashed city of the Falmer. I’d expect this rivalry then to come from a more recent source. Sea-trade of Dawnstar v land-trade of Whiterun (especially since Pale Pass opened)? Military rivalries over influence on resources of the villages between them? Different types of population, mountain Nord v sea and refugee populations?

Resources have been contracted into the central holdings to facilitate the re-invigoration of the farming cycle, and since metal, stone, and wood are more easily scavenged than harvested, the logging operations and mines have largely stopped.

Good opportunity for Dawnstar to expand influence in villages between them, especially if it has more money from alliance with Solitude to pay for logging and mines.

The Oblivion crisis drove citizens back to Hrothgar and affected both sides of the dispute to the point that an unstable peace afflicts them. His heroic charge of gate within his city inspired a new respect for him. Jsashe has claimed through her magic and priestesses they were successful in forcefully resisting the invaders.

Actually, probably more likely the result of witches’ historical truck with daedra. She perhaps has a powerful patron, maybe Nocturnal through whose realm Dagon’s forces have travelled.

Destroyed sections of towns and scorched landscapes hardly speak well of either of their efforts, but both sides have recoiled to rebuild. Looting is common, leading to many travelers to find themselves surprised at the finery of furnishings within homes and businesses. The stones of destroyed buildings are continually taken for improvements to occupied structures.

A surge of nationalism has caused the Nords to rebuild their most important structures and shrines, especially those dedicated to Akatosh after hearing his part in the banishment of Dagon.

Akatosh in the form of Alduin the World Eater, Ǫldtǫnn to the Aldmorans.

Hrothgar is the King most dedicated to the retention of the Empire.

Between this and heroics, definite candidate for Imperial throne, or first against the wall when the revolution comes.

I imagine TES V: Skyrim with these profiles for the city-states, and the main quest weaving these eight stories together into one comprehensive unit and one ending from eight viewpoints.

I’m not so interested in the one-ending approach. (1) If I write a sequel, I am comfortable either picking one ending, or as many as are not flatly contradictory, so no dragon breaks here. (2) I honestly think it’s lame and a waste of time to bother writing a story that can only end one way. If you’re creative enough to branch the story, why render the branches meaningless by merging them all together at the end?

That would keep the story consistent, but after the main quest there would be two or three city-states that would be no longer operational to the same state as before: governments would be deposed, sections of towns and the countryside would be knocked away, and large populations eliminated through genocide.

I plan an ethnocide in the backstory already (see From Aldmora to Empire), so I’d rather not add a genocide of a current people. These things take a long time to happen, and even if the empire is over the people are still used to its conventions.

The start of the game would be within a month of the Oblivion Crisis. The end of the game will fluctuate depending on the player’s speed, but the generally accepted finish will be listed in TES VI as two and a half to three years later. I’d prefer TES VI to take place at about the same time as Skyrim, but on the opposite side of the empire for perspective.

I agree with the general time frame. I’d like there to be enough time elapsed that the dust has settled, the enemy confirmed dispatched or just gone, and people are starting about their ordinary lives again. I don’t want so much time that any significant personal or political fallout from the crisis has been resolved.

Generally the main quest begins when you are accepted into a knightly organization in the service of a King or Queen.

I’d rather this be the midpoint or intermediate goal of your service to a Hold, to set up a final few public missions. There are many things you can do, to ingratiate yourself with a court and build your reputation, that can really benefit from being a nobody whom they may plausibly deny they know. Also, when you betray them, they can just cut their losses.

From the descriptions of the eight you can fairly well guess the kinds of missions they would send you on, but the standard guilds need to be worked into the storyline somewhat as well. The guilds I hope would rely on random quests and make these special quests available during the course of the main quest as you progress through it, such as the Dark Brotherhood.

I really like the idea of being able to kill anyone in the game, and I have no problem breaking quests as a result of random DB/MT assignments. Since I want there to be many paths through the game, and many different endings, shutting out even entire quest lines because you killed the wrong people is fine with me.

Three of the leaders of the city-states would be assassinated before three quarters of the main quest are over, as well as a dozen nobles, a score of political figures and many inhibitors. Not all of these need to be brotherhood jobs, but the flexible means of death would allow you to hire them for the job, do it yourself, or send your underlings depending on the message you want to convey.

+1 for vast changes to the political landscape, +1 for flexibility, +1 for actually feeling like you’re in charge.

The Fighters guild should be swamped with work in this post-crisis environment (not picking flowers), the Mages have ample opportunity for research and experimentation under several of the city-states,

Their first-hand experience against daedra should provide them with new battle strategies and tactics, and materials to study. We’ll have to decide whether the new liminal barriers sent back the daedra in fixed, equipment form as well. I’m inclined to say yes, otherwise daedric stuff will be everywhere, and that’s way too cliche and uber for me without a very good reason.

and the Thieves of course have never been in a better position to steal goods and information. Witch covens will largely be covered by Jsashe and fringe groups, necromancy has several footholds already in Skyrim but I would include soulsnare areas in mountain valleys where the dead can roam freely as part of the Necromancer’s faction.

I’m so over the good v evil Necromancer v Mages’ Guild storyline. I’d much rather incorporate and discuss the problems that arise as a result of letting only White Arts back in a new Department of Necromancy (eg, re-incorporate the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld).

Imperial legions and navy units operate with diminishing effectiveness as the Empire shows signs of crumbling and desertion becomes more widespread.

Excellent point. I like how subtle indications of a loosening of authority and discipline grow to justify big upheavals, coups, and revolutions. Even better if you can justify a bloodless coup.

Followup

My deal with the one ending is that the outside will see it as one ending, but depending on which of the city-states you are aligned with at that moment you see the ending differently. For some of the people you align with, your reward is death. For others you’re made a top advisor to the ruler, the head of their knightly guild, or chief liaison. Others in between you have a chance to run for your life to escape Skyrim, or just switch your allegiance.

The branches aren’t meaningless, but they would be covered up by the person who takes control of the country. History is written by the winner, and those who disagree with the winner are rolled over. Thus, the one ending.

So, depending on which faction wins, they each have a different way they treat you? Some glorify you, some kill you, and several steps between? This seems right. On top of this, I assume, which faction wins, and whether a faction wins, is determined by your actions. I’d like to have more ways to end the game than having a faction win. For examples, see the first three italicized paragraphs on this page. By ending, I mean the end of the political changes in the game, not necessarily the game itself.

The genocide is reflective of the racial tensions. Events will trigger spouts of racism where people of certain races are persecuted and tortured in the streets. Roving bands of troops coming upon travels who aren’t like them could kill them quickly and just ride on with nobody knowing who did it.

Good examples of realistic medieval behavior, but not of genocide. Full-on genocide still seems like overkill to me, without powerful motivations.

I like to work on the basis of motivations. Why, in this particular settlement, do they take the opportunity of the lack of Imperial authority to prosecute or even persecute a particular race? How does that community take it, strike back, or flee? How do the surrounding communities, of both races, admire or condemn stoicism, support or arm retribution, or house or take advantage of refugees? I think this can work on a small scale, as specific communities conflict, since Eastmarch won’t support little utopias like Bleaker’s Way when we have Nord aggression against the Redoran.

When I said the main quest starts when you join a knightly organization, I wasn’t meaning that you could join one when you choose to. They have to invite you in, so to get that invitation you must find a way to prove yourself useful. Winning tournaments would be one way, playing your connections to get to talk to the king is another way. Becoming well liked by the minor nobles can get you noticed as well, being famous for your powerful magical talents, being ruthlessly efficient at gathering information or resources. Effectively you would have to be established in the world before they would even consider you. A term of military service is always a plus, and the military would have units available for all kinds of characters.

I see lots of little quests here, with some interesting and natural motivations. If the object of most of these quests is to warn, impoverish, suppress, or hurt another faction, so much the better, since you will largely be able to build up your rep with one faction only by ticking off another. I don’t think a completely zero-sum game is necessary, though.

For example, military service against the Redoran should help your rep with a couple Holds, which can be mitigated by espionage for the Redoran against the very Holds that employ you. So, say a strike force from Windhelm cuts a bloody swath east from Dunmeth Pass, but are stopped and all-but-slaughtered by an ambush. Your battle prowess determined how many Dunmer died (for which your rep increases with some Holds), and your treachery caused the Nords’ death (for which your rep increases with the Redoran). (Oh, and Mephala/Sithis likes you bunches for the treachery and all the deaths.)

The deal with the necromancers isn’t an us vs them situation with the mage’s guild. I’m thinking of the Daggerfall system where the temple is the (in the eyes of the people) good guys, the necromancers are the bad guys, and the mages guild is comprised of both. The only time the mages guild would be against the necromancers is if the necromancers (who will mostly be guild members anyway) cause trouble somewhere or if a religious magician feels like stirring the pot. The mages guild I see is out for control, and the agendas it holds are the works of the individual guild leaders.

I like this better than the one-dimensional “because Traven said so” agenda of the Mages’ Guild in Oblivion. Have you read The Exodus and Dark Arts on Retrial? I’d like to incorporate both in Spearthane, and re-admit the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld into the restored Department of Necromancy. I think this still permits much conflict with those necromancers too indebted to the dark arts to take advantage of the Mages’ Guild’s white-art amnesty. It should also more clearly define the PC’s character for siding with the truly selfish or enslaved servants of the Worm God Mannimarco.

Magnus placed the Zero Stone in Ada-mantia of High Rock.

Lorkhan’s Heart of the World was cast into Red Mountain of Vvardenfell. Resolved by the Nerevarine.

Altmer Crystal-like-Law around the first stone of mortals on Summerset Isle.

Ayleid placed the Amulet of Kings in White-Gold of Cyrod. Resolved by the Martin Septim, transformed into Statue of Akatosh.

Dwemer placed Mantella in Walk-Brass, Numidium, of Morrowind, which the Chimer/Dunmer inherited.

Left-Handed Elves placed sharpening whetstone for spirit-blades in Orichalc of Yokuda.

Bosmer placed root-hub in Green-Sap (Falinestri?) of Valenwood.

Falmer placed coherent bundle of winds in Snow-Throat of Skyrim.

Azura placed moon-sugar among the Khajiit of Elswyr.

Hist of Black Marsh.

History

Much from Luagar2, quoting lore.

Ada-mantia (Adamantine, Direnni) Tower on the Isle of Balfiera in High Rock is dated to around ME 2500, making it the oldest known structure in Tamriel. The earliest known date in Aldmeri history: earliest historical date in unpublished Elvish chronicles. The erection of Ada-mantia [created the first tower of Mundus], a sleek and silver vessel, a spike into the changing earth, the impossipoint of the Convention; every Tower bears its Stone, [Ada-mantia’s was] called the Zero Stone. The powers at [the Convention] were able to determine through [the Zero] Stone the spread of creation and their parts in it; the physical, temporal, spiritual, and magical elements of Nirn were set.

Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a volcano formed Red Mountain, and Mundus was given its second Tower, the Red, whose First Stone was the Heart of the World, “as in the image.” This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine (in this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN, the consequence of variable fate).

The Heart was powerful enough (that’s what the Dwemer used). The power of the Heart basically allowed them to manipulate the basic stories (myths) which comprise the foundations of the world, by this they could do pretty much whatever they wanted (not to mention with the help of a dreamsleeve which allowed them to already be connected directly with the rest of their race). Being able to screw with the myths (through the mythopoeic enchantments on the Heart) is sorta like being able to be in a story, take the pen and rewrite what you want; with that kind of influence moving some bodies around is probably a piece of cake… Luagar2

In the Middle Merethic Era, as they were the most powerful of lesser spirits in the ages after the Convention and eager to emulate what they saw, the [descendants of the] Aldmer began construction of their own towers. That they built more than one shows that they were not of one mind. The Crystal Tower (Crystal-like-Law) was built on Summerset Isle.

[With various explorations done and the Direnni finding the Adamantine Tower, the Aylied’s settled in Cyrodiil]. [Here the] White Gold Tower [was built by] the Ayleids, [who went to Cyrodiil and] harvested castaway creatia from Oblivion by entering a pact with the Daedra. [The Tower], a conduit of creatia, [was] built to bring about a reversal of the congealing spiritual bleed caused by the Convention. In other words, it was a focus point for (re-)reaching the divine. Stone of White-Gold Tower is the Amulet of Kings.

Over many years, the [Mer] of Tamriel (Aldmer) began to split along cultural lines according to their new environments [and] on how best to spread creation and their parts in it. Each Tower that was built exemplified a separate accordance. The Elves were dividing [and] this sundering of purpose is the myth of the “destruction of Aldmeris.” At first [the dividing was only] temperamentally [but] then [they became] physically very distinct “races” separate from one another; [the Aldmer would thus] become the [various merish races]: the Dwemer, Chimer, and Altmer [(including Aylied)].

[Other Towers were also built]: Orichalc [(in Yokuda)-stone as a sharpening whetstone for spirit-blades], Green-Sap [(most likely in Valenwood)-tower as the moving tree-city Falinesti, stone as its root-hub], Snow Throat [(Throat of the World, in Skyrim)-stone as a coherent bundle of winds], and on and on. [The Towers] are magical and physical echoes of the Ur-Tower, Ada-mantia, [just as] the Stones are magical and physical echoes of the Zero Stone, by which a Tower might focus its energy to mold creation.

Oftentimes, the Stones borrowed surplus creation from Oblivion, grafting it to the terrestrial domain of its anointed Tower. It was and is difficult to bypass Oblivion to go directly to creation’s source, the Aetherius; it [was] done [though], but not without great expenditure, mundane and otherwise. However, access to Oblivion, the Void that surrounds Mundex Arena, which we might touch every night, was child’s play in comparison. Cultivating creatia that washed into the Void from Aetherius became the rule among Stones.

The Daedric Realms [had been] formed on much the same principle [however] the Towers built on the Mundus, since the lands around them congealed in the absence of the gods, were unable to match the capriciousness of the [Daedra].

Numidium

Walk-Brass, or Anumidium, stone Mantella, was created by the Dwemer. They had found a way to go “upstream” in the universe by reuniting with “the first brush of Anu and Padomay”. They, as an entire race, attempted to unite themselves into the giant golem as one, single entity, then give it divinity via the Heart of Lorkhan. Its golden skin is/was made of Dwemer souls. The thing is meeeaaan. Vivec gave it to Tiber Septim, but without its “battery”, the Heart of Lorkhan. Instead, Tiber powered it with either the heart of Zurin Arctus or King Wulfharth, depending on which version you believe. It absolutely decimates whatever it goes against, except for something that is a part of it, which is why either Zurin or Wulfharth (again, depending upon which version you read) fought it and blasted its “lifeforce” into Aetherius. Don’t mess with the Numidium. It is a god with a remote control capable of creating entire parallel universes and Dragon Breaks. In fact, it created the entire Imperial race after Tiber/Arctus and/or Wulfharth entity reunited and became Talos. Talos then spawned the Imperials, which did not exist until TES III. A very, very good article is Luagar’s Final Report To Trebonius, which details the thing and its uses/creation a bit. Hope this helps. The Word Merchant

It’s not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium’s siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints.”--MK

“To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum’s iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison. To achieve this goal, we must: (1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane. (2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated. (3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.” Merry Christmas, MK

Summary from The Word Merchant.

In Aldmora

Nords, as their name implies, come from the north. As a people, they originated in the northern-most place in the known world, a continent known as Atmora. Little is known of the geography and history of Atmora, as at the time of the migration from there, humanity did not possess a written language. What little is known comes from old Elvish records which are not open to Imperial scholars, but which are known to refer to the continent as ‘Aldmora’, meaning “Elder Wood”. It is likely Atmora is a human corruption of this word. In a historical sense, the humans who live there are called Nedes, as are those humans living in Tamriel before King Harald, thirteenth of the Ysgramor line, seceded from Atmoran rulership, after which they are historically annotated as Cyro-Nordics, to illustrate that the Cyrodiil people had not yet gone separate from the original trunk of human population.

Even in ancient times, Atmora must have been extremely cold, at least as much so as modern day Skyrim, because the men who lived there are very well suited to live in cold climates. UESPWiki on Nords

From Aldmora to Falmora

Pre-literate humans, the so-called “Nedic Peoples”, from the continent of Atmora (also ‘Altmora’ or ‘the Elder Wood’ in Aldmeris) migrate and settle in northern Tamriel. “The Nedic peoples were a minority in a land of Elves, and had no choice but to live peacefully with the Elder Race. In High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, and possibly Morrowind, they did just that, and the Nedic peoples flourished and expanded over the last centuries of the Merethic Era.” (from FRONTIER, CONQUEST, AND ACCOMODATION: A SOCIAL HISTORY OF CYRODIIL) Nordic hero Ysgramor, leader of a great colonizing fleet to Tamriel, develops a runic transcription of Nordic speech based on Elvish principles, and is the first human historian. Ysgramor’s fleet lands at Hsaarik Head at the extreme northern tip of Skyrim’s Broken Cape. The Nords build there the legendary city of Saarthal. Merethic Era timeline and notes from the Imperial Library

It is said that during the time of the migration, a protracted and bloody civil war had gripped Atmora, and, as the story goes, a man named Ysgramor rallied those people from all sides who desired to live in peace, and set sail to the south, eventually arriving in Skyrim; the extreme northern tip of the continent of Tamriel, at a place known as Hsaarik Head. They named the new land “Mereth” in tribute to the many Elves which lived in the forests there (Elves having arrived in Tamriel several millennia prior). UESPWiki on Nords

A Night of Tears

As it goes, Elves and men lived in relative peace and prosperity for a great deal of time, however, the Elves, upon observing the staggering birthrate of the human populace, quickly realized that men would overtake the wild places and become the first major threat to Elvish civilization in the known world. Of course, this would not have happened for many centuries, and it would have occurred unnoticeably slowly from the human point of view; however, in the Elvish mind, this would be the equivalent of the statement “The day after tomorrow, we will be overtaken.” UESPWiki on Nords

Ysgramor’s provocations and blasphemies have, of course, been long forgotten. PGE: Skyrim

Falmer taught Ysgramor, sons, and Saarthal of Lorkhan in terms of overcoming His works to regain divine nature and rebirth through baptism in the waters of Oblivion (normal water transformed with a philosopher’s stone, which actually did work, turning aedric souls into daedric through Lorkhan’s favor). Ysgramor, sons, and Saarthal, less biased against their true creator, interpreted this power as a gift from Lorkhan as the One True God, creating a great religious awakening (Ysgramor’s “provocations and blasphemies”). Falmer saw that they had created a city and a people of heretics which would only grow, and so put them to the stake.

For genocide to happen, there must be certain preconditions. Foremost among them is a national culture that does not place a high value on human life. A totalitarian society, with its assumed superior ideology, is also a precondition for genocidal acts. In addition, members of the dominant society must perceive their potential victims as less than fully human: as “pagans,” “savages,” “uncouth barbarians,” “unbelievers,” “effete degenerates,” “ritual outlaws,” “racial inferiors,” “class antagonists,” “counterrevolutionaries,” and so on. In themselves, these conditions are not enough for the perpetrators to commit genocide. To do that—that is, to commit genocide—the perpetrators need a strong, centralized authority and bureaucratic organization as well as pathological individuals and criminals. Also required is a campaign of vilification and dehumanization of the victims by the perpetrators, who are usually new states or new regimes attempting to impose conformity to a new ideology and its model of society. Wikipedia on genocide in history

Soon thereafter, the Aldmer launched a series of pogroms against the settlements of humanity, and in what was to become known as the Night of Tears, an Elven militia razed the capital city of Saarthal to the ground, killing the defenders and everyone unable to flee, well over a thousand people. The Nedic men were scattered to the coast and systematically hunted down in an act of unmitigated cleansing, and only Ysgramor and his two sons survived, fleeing in the last available longship while the port they launched from was burned. UESPWiki on Nords

According to the ancient writings and oral traditions of the Nords, the Nordic god Shor creates Sovngarde, the place that is built to honor those Nords who have proven their mettle in war. (For more information: Sovngarde, a Reexamination.) Merethic Era timeline and notes from the Imperial Library

The Philosophers’ Stones Shattered

Ysgramor and sons returned to Aldmora for support, but only got it by appealing to Aldmorans in terms of the gods all the Aldmorans worshipped. Privately, Ysgramor and his sons continued to believe in the One, creating the ancient Nordic cult that Tiber Septim glorified with the Temple of the One. (Akatosh summoned in the temple to preserve the plan of dead Lorkhan, whom She killed to enact the plan.)

After the Night of Tears, some Aldmorans were holy warriors on a crusade of vengeance rooted deep in their culture, and some weren’t (ironically, those more sympathetic to the idea of the One, who worshipped Mara).

Arriving in Atmora, and observing the tumultuous peace which had developed, they quickly propagated their tale of a vicious and deceitful alien race, the Elves, bent on scouring men from the face of the world. Rallying the various factions to their cause, they conscripted an army composed of the heroes of the war, which history would know as the “Five Hundred Companions”. Upon their return to Tamriel, they expediently slaughtered the Elves living there and laid the foundations for the ascendancy of Men to the power they now hold, and thusly sparked a long fuming hatred and prejudice between the two races which exists, by degree, even today. UESPWiki on Nords

[Atmoran tactics: see Wikipedia on Viking arms and armor, weapons and warfare.]

In Falmora the Age of Men began dramatically in the late Merethic Era when the Five Hundred Companions destroyed the temple complex in Dawnstar, a center of learning famous across the continent. Monks were killed in the abbey, thrown into the sea to drown or carried away as slaves along with the church treasures. The devastation of Altumbria’s calm city shocked and alerted the royal Courts of Mereth. Never before has such an atrocity been seen, declared the Altumbrian Scholar, Alcuin of Lainalten. [Polarizing opinion and redirecting internal criticism away from the Falmer pogroms and the Night of Tears.] More than any other single event, the attack on Dawnstar cast a shadow on merish perception of Aldmorans for the next milennia. Adapted Viking Age historical consideration of Lindisfarne

Alcuin of Lainalten declares: In this year fierce, foreboding omens came over the land of Altumbria. There were excessive whirlwinds, lightning storms, and fiery dragons were seen flying in the sky. These signs were followed by great famine, and on the Day of Blood Eagle the ravaging of heathen men destroyed the Gnostic Study of Lorkhan at Dawnstar. The heathens poured out the blood of the students on the stones of the Garden of Celestial Pattern, and trampled in the meditation rooms on the drained and mutilated bodies of the enlightened. Adapted Lindisfarne history

Land of Rape and Honey

Strategically, the ideal was to swiftly effect an adversary’s collapse through a short campaign fought by a small, professional army. Operationally, its goal was to use indirect means, such as mobility and shock, to render an adversary’s plans irrelevant or impractical. Wikipedia on blitzkrieg

The battlefront was lost, and with it the illusion that there had ever been a battlefront. For this was no war of occupation, but a shocking, awful war of quick penetration and obliteration. Swift columns of tongues and cavalry plunged through Falmora while gale-force winds bearing lightning and driving, immobilizing rain from an allied sky heralded their coming. They sawed off communications, destroyed animals, scattered civilians, spread terror. Working sometimes 30 miles (50 km) ahead of infantry and battle mages, they broke down Falmoran defenses before they had time to organize. Then, while the infantry mopped up, they moved on, to strike again far behind what had been called the front. Adapted TIME magazine account of the fall of Poland in WWII

Collective and arbitrary murder, systematic abduction of children to raise them away from their parent’s culture, active and degrading religious propaganda, forced work, expulsion from the homeland or compulsory abandonment of cultural habits and social structure, all these practices, described by Robert Jaulin, have in common a deep despise for the other man and woman as representatives of a different cultural world. Wikipedia on ethnocide

[Falmer reaction: see Wikipedia on the strategy of Fabian, thirty-six strategems, and the hashshashin.]

The Courts of Mereth did not react with unity to the lightning war and following purge, partly because they did not realize that these men had such power—they figured that the gods were on their side—and partly because they weren’t too fond of a merish culture that delved so deeply into the study of Lorkhan. The common mer called them worshippers, and derided them for communing with mannish ancestors, both not true. The Falmer felt that the path of transcendence lay through self-effacing study (gnosis, experiential knowledge) of their divine spark from Lorkhan, since they believed they were in the deadric plane of Dawn’s Beauty. The Courts decided that the Ayleids had the right idea, enslaving men to suppress their will to power, but the Falmer could not effectively break the Aldmorans.

It may be that the exploits of the near-mythical Ysgramor conflate the reigns of several early Nord Kings, as the Elves were not finally driven from the present boundaries of Skyrim until the reign of King Harald, the thirteenth of Ysgramor’s line, at the dawn of recorded history. King Harald is also remembered for being the first King to relinquish all holdings in Atmora; the Nords of Skyrim were now a separate people, whose faces were turned firmly toward their destiny, the conquest of the vast new land of Tamriel. Indeed, the history of the Nords is the history of humans in Tamriel; all the human races, with the exception of the Redguards, are descended from Nordic stock, although in some the ancient blood admittedly runs thin.

King Vrage the Gifted began the expansion that led to the First Empire of the Nords. Within a span of fifty years, Skyrim ruled all of northern Tamriel, including most of present-day High Rock, a deep stretch of the Nibenay Valley, and the whole of Morrowind. The Conquest of Morrowind was one of the epic clashes of the First Era, when ensued many a desperate contest between Nord and Dark Elf in the hills and glades of that dire kingdom, still recalled by the songs of the minstrels in the alehouses of Skyrim. The system of succession in the First Empire is worthy of note, as it proved in the end to be the Empire’s undoing. By the early years of the First Empire, Skyrim was already divided into Holds, then ruled by a patchwork of clan-heads, kings, and councils (or moots), all of which paid fealty to the King of Skyrim. During the exceptionally long reign of King Harald, who died at 108 years of age and outlived all but three of his sons, a Moot was created, made up of representatives from each Hold, to choose the next King from qualified members of the royal family. Over the years, the Moot became permanent and acquired an increasing amount of power; by the reign of King Borgas, the last of the Ysgramor dynasty, the Moot had become partisan and ineffective. Upon the murder of King Borgas by the Wild Hunt (see Aldmeri Dominion – Valenwood), the Moot’s failure to appoint the obvious and capable Jarl Hanse of Winterhold sparked the disastrous Skyrim War of Succession, during which Skyrim lost control of its territories in High Rock, Morrowind, and Cyrodiil, never to regain them. The war was finally concluded in 1E420 with the Pact of Chieftans; henceforth, the Moot was convened only when a King died without direct heirs, and it has fulfilled this more limited role admirably. It has only been called upon three times in the intervening millenia, and the Skyrim succession has never again been disputed on the field of battle. PGE: Skyrim

For at that time the Elves were as damned and near death as ever they had been during the great skirmishes of Solstheim. The Battle of the Moesring was to be the final stand between Nord and Elf on our fair island. Led by Ysgramor, we had driven the Elven scourge from Skyrim, and were intent on cleansing Solstheim of their kind as well. Our warriors, armed with the finest axes and swords Nord craftsmen could forge, cut great swaths through the enemy ranks. The slopes of the Moesring ran red with Elf blood. … It is common practice to burn the corpses of our fallen foes. This is as much a necessity as it is custom, for death brings with it disease and dread. Our chieftains wished to cleanse Solstheim of the Elven horde, in death as well as life. Fall of the Snow Prince

Children of Saarthal

Some victors and veterans of the campaign against the Falmer, after crushing their spine in Solstheim, banded together to continue to hunt them down individually, and in their small refugee groups. Continuing to search and destroy, they became a tacitly endorsed military order (mentioned in the holy canticle), making the lands safe for the ancient Nordic cult of the One.

The purpose of ethnic cleansing is to remove the conditions for potential and actual opposition, whether political, terrorist, guerrilla or military, by physically removing any potentially or actually hostile ethnic communities. Wikipedia

The Children of Saarthal is now a group of pure-blooded Nords descended from Aldmoran stock whose mission (greatly reduced since ancient times) is to hunt down all Falmer and destroy their works, and sustain belief in the One. They’ve had long enough, been granted enough resources (especially under the First Empire of Man based in Windhelm), and were thorough enough that no pureblood Falmer lives above ground, no Falmer ruin stands above ground, no obviously Falmer ruin entrance is visible in any reasonably accessible location, and the Temple of the One (partly) stands in the Imperial City. The Falmer Boundary Runes mentioned in the PGE annotation records a confession of the Night of Tears from the Falmer, dictated by the Children of Saarthal, so it’s actually a monument to their success.

Fallout Across Three Ages

Spreading out from the north, Ysgramor’s clan stretched its arms, proving that no ancient force was more fearsome than the Nords. In the 113th year of the First Era, the entirety of modern Skyrim was under the reign of King Harald, and still, it continued to expand. Leaving their snowy valleys and mountains, the Nords attacked the Dwemer of neighbouring Resdayn, the Altmer and Bretons of High Rock and lent aid to the rising slave rebellion in Cyrodiil which was to end the Ayleid rule of the south.

Ayleid to Alessian rule in Cyrodiil: The Last King of the Ayleids.

In the centuries that followed, Skyrim expanded and contracted as battles were won and lost. Though Cyrodiil was considered a separate domain, the Nords and the early Imperials formed a loose alliance against their elven opponents, their cultures mixing together, creating the foundations of modern day Aedric worship. Yet Skyrim remained the dominant human nation in Tamriel until it was torn apart by rivalries within the Ysgramor clan. As individual chieftains fought each other, Skyrim gradually lost her holdings in present day Morrowind and High Rock, and certain localities in Skyrim became independent kingdoms. For brief periods, one ruler has managed to unite all of Skyrim, but the Nord character is one essentially of conflict, and the confederacies never last. The Cyrodilic Empire and later the Septim Empire was able to take advantage of this tendency and recruit the warlike Nords to their side before they became a force of the opposition.

Not until the Third Era did merish scholars outside Skyrim begin seriously to reassess the achievements of the Aldmorans, recognizing the artistry, the technological skills and the seamanship. Until Tiber Septim’s reign in White-Gold Tower, Aldmorans were portrayed as the most violent and bloodthirsty of men: the chronicles of the Aldmeri Dominion had always portrayed them as rapacious ‘wolves among sheep’, compared to the compromised races of men who interbred with mer. Adapted Viking Age historical consideration of Lindisfarne

In the third era, if Cyrodiil has been the heart of the Empire, Skyrim has been its strong arm. The greatest threat to the Empire’s unity occured in the 120th year, when the so-called Wolf Queen of Solitude, Potema, aunt of the Empress Kintyra, launched a rebellion that became a blood civil war. Though it was eventually quelled, the repercussions are evident to this day. There is a strong underground movement called the Horme that believes Potema and her deposed son of Uriel III to be the last of Tiber Septim’s true blood and under that principle lead raids against Imperial interests in the province.

Under the Imperial Simulacrum of Jagar Tharn, cold animosities between the kingdoms of Skyrim and their neighbors in High Rock and Hammerfell were fanned into the fire of war. Upon the true Emperor’s return to his throne, this war ended, but not before Skyrim had reasserted itself on territory it had not held since the 1st Era.

The War of Bend’r-Mahk increased the territory that is considered Skyrim considerably, allowing the Nordic counts to swallow up many miles of eastern High Rock and Hammerfell. Resistance by the Bretons and the Redguards is feeble in the cities of Jehenna and Elinhir, and more active in the border zones of the countryside. The city-state of Dragonstar continues to be divided into western and eastern sections, walled off from one another, each with its own government, and each with an atmosphere of mistrust and fear. There are few days without an act of terror from one resistance group or another, though, so far little territory has changed hands since the days of the Imperial Simulacrum. PGE3: Skyrim

Ice and Chitin mentions: Danstrar, a base for Nordic warchiefs in 2E855 during Tiber’s conquest; and a bay between an ancient keep on the isthmus of Nerone, built by Reman Cyrodiil against the Akaviri, and Gorvigh Ridge en route to a legion garrison at Porhnak.

The Beggar series mentions the western town of Jallenheim, and The Aalto. While there are many clues that this story is not to be taken seriously, Jallenheim is a Nordic village as of 2E358 in Fire and Darkness, and Jazbay wine is enjoyed “fairly recently” before 3E388 in the Red Kitchen Reader.

In north-central Skyrim, there is an area called The Aalto, which is of unique geographical interest. It is a dormant volcanic valley surrounded on all sides by glaciers, so the earth is hot from the volcano, but the constant water drizzle and air is frigid. A grape called Jazbay grows there comfortably, and everywhere else in Tamriel it withers and dies. The strange vineyard is a privately owned, and the wine produced from it is thus rare and extremely expensive. It is said that the Emperor needs the permission of the Imperial Council to have a glass of it once a year. Warrior

For example:

The faction of Uriel is Haafinheim Partisan. The reputation of Uriel is 1. [These two sentences are actually code for the game. I love Inform 7.]

9:18 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.

unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim 0, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.

Uriel just bleeds.

…

9:23 am >z
Time passes.

Uriel just bleeds.

Uriel dies.

9:24 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.

unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim -1, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.

Added a repute command to report your reputation. In this example, I backstabbed, looted, bound, and killed someone in a faction, and shouted myself from a city to a village.

9:22 am >repute
Army guard.
Assassin.
Rogue.
Tongue.

Disliked in Haafinheim.

You have a reputation with each skill, group, or faction.

The 14 skills are unemployed [beggars], alchemist, army guard, assassin, craftsman, fighter, healer, mage, merchant, reader, rogue, ruler, tongue, and undead.

The 13 factions are unaligned [mediators], Eastmarch Partisan, Falkreath Partisan, Haafinheim Partisan, High Rock Partisan, Imperial Partisan, Northshore Partisan, Pale Partisan, Reach Partisan, Redoran Partisan, Rift Partisan, White Hold Partisan, and Winter Hold Partisan.

The 13 groups are ungrouped [negotiators], Mage’s Guild, Necromancers, Imperial Legion, Bandits, Dark Brotherhood, Morag Tong, Fighter’s Guild, Divine Clerics, Elder Council, College Faculty, Thieves’ Guild, and Greybeards.

Nonlinear faction start, player evolution main quest, and faction agenda side quests by Tyrion1.

Supply and demand economy, crime, merchant characters by Rhekarid.

9:17 am >help me
You can seek help about status, fame and infamy, chaos and order, good and evil, which directions to go, combat, commands, and tone in conversation.

For more information about the game, see http://spearthane.wordpress.com/

9:18 am >help tone
act … sets a tone to your part of conversations. The tones are dominant, actively submissive, passively submissive, angry, fearful, defensive, aggressive, suspicious, relaxed, tense, happy, hunting, and playful. Some people respond differently to certain tones, or only respond to a specific tone.

9:19 am >help act
act … sets a tone to your part of conversations. The tones are dominant, actively submissive, passively submissive, angry, fearful, defensive, aggressive, suspicious, relaxed, tense, happy, hunting, and playful. Some people respond differently to certain tones, or only respond to a specific tone.

9:20 am >act stupid
That’s not a tone you can put across to an animal. You’re currently relaxed.

9:21 am >ask jocien about me
The census-taker requests, “Please tell me your name, usual whereabouts, age, race, and trade.”

9:22 am >act fearful
Your tone is now fearful.

9:23 am >ask jocien about me
The census-taker explains, “Look, I’m not trying to draft you. I just need your name, usual whereabouts, age, race, and trade for the tally.”

I’m pretty proud of this: I feel it’s a definite step towards roleplaying, since you can set a general mood for your character, and people (that are coded to) will respond differently.

This is one of those features that takes a lot of work (to write out different responses to the same topics), but adds a lot of depth and replayability to the game.  For example, if you ask someone about the same thing in a different ways they might offer to help you, kill you, send you on a quest, offer you membership in their faction, or ignore you completely.

Each of these options may preclude the others, so this is another mechanism for branching storylines and (ir)revocable acts that help change how people perceive you, along with faction rep, alignment, and general fame and infamy.

Crni Vuk: No fighting Zombies anymore PLEASE! We got enough of them … seriously. If they are just with you to give fire support I will not care about them. Give Characters – Voice *Dont let them sound all the same. Boring – Comments *They should have opinions about your actions and express them! – Personality *Good characters might not like and follow you if youre doing bad things. – Realistic movement *Why should females walk/act like males … – Optic *If it is possible to give them weapons and armor they should use it and it should be possible to see that as player. (- Maybe own quests you can do with them)More inteligent, more comments, own oppinions, own unique apearance and personalities. People should remember them. No one says that you (the player) has to fall in love to them even when I would think it is a nice adition but at least they should start conversations with you when something happens they either really like or disslike. Maybe a comment from time to time like the first time you use a Power Armor or when they blow up some head from hard enemies.)

bronzepoem: I won’t hear the funny argument between teammates… Most importment, they should be interactive with whale the environment. Talking with other teammates,with NPCs, have their opinion on a quest or a affair. A benemoth may be discriminated by some unfair NPC, of course he have his approach to deal with such things. A native teammate will be surpirised on high-tech item. Also a hooligans teammate must like some corruption citys, and he won’t like protagonists behave too honourous. That is fallout style, which ten year old game could give us.

Vainglorious: I agree. The vast majority of characters in Morrowind and Oblivion simply regurgitated the same generic topics, although quest-givers usually had interesting stuff to say. The number of truly unique and memorable characters was fairly small, though, compared to the original Fallout games… or at least, that’s the way it seemed from my point of view. Sure, in F1 and F2, there were generic townspeople. But of those NPCs you could talk to, almost all of them had memorable, distinct, and unique personalities, and they didn’t share any generic dialog with each other. Even bartenders and mechanics had interesting personalities. Also significantly, the companions had personalities and back stories. Sulik was my favorite… he had a funky accent, a gnarly ‘tude, a cool back story, and a unique way of phrasing sentences. That is for me one of the biggest indicators that Fallout had more memorable characters than Morrowind/Oblivion: I can easily remember Sulik, the village Elder, Tandy, Myron, Marcus, Cassidy, First Citizen Lynette… but I can barely remember any NPCs from Oblivion, or even Morrowind, which I am playing as we speak. I really hope they give a lot of the NPCs in F3 unique and memorable dialog and personalities. No more foot-long dialog menus with the same thirty topics, to which fifty other NPCs will give you the exact same response.

Daigoro: Not only is this the loss of multiple, intruiging party members, and the depth that their interection added, but it also nerfs Charisma in a major way. Eliminating the limitation for NPCs based on CH is reducing the potence of CH. That’s neutering it.

Since I’m not doing stats yet, number of teammates depends on whether you’ve earned them, whether they’ll work together (a new unpopular one could make all the old ones leave, eg Adoring Fan), whether you keep them happy (eg, some might have care or feeding requirements), whether you avoid attacking them or getting into situations where they become (or are forced to become) aggressive to you, whether they stay alive against the enemies you fight (need to make enemies with multiple attacks target friends too, and all enemies target you if you attack in around, otherwise your buddies), and whether they accept your alignment (this will do the most to limit powerful sentient friends). With all these limitations, why use a stat roll against a number that only reflects min-maxing at the start of the game, or grinding up skill levels with boring repetition of non-plot-advancing actions? Anything that changes the game from role-playing to stat management should be avoided. I’ve been able to do a lot by linking health to stealth, that avoids having to program in levels, dexterity, and thief-skill percentage tables.

Maia: I really hope that there is on-the-fly Hold/follow me command for the NPCs. Every game that lacked it just drove me up the wall. I still have nightmares about (temporary) followers in MW, the Gothics and even Fallouts that would attack something totally out of our league or annihilate my PC with area spells/weapons.

Done.

dagoth jeff: There should be no limit to companions. In such a trashed world, we’ll need something to make us feel less alone. Of course, having such an option early on would ruin the overall gaming experience, and mood settings.

The hunting buddy is in there early now just for testing. Once I write his intro, he’ll move somewhere else.

But money talks LOUDLY. Anyone physically able, and fit for the position would surely offer themselves up for hire (if asked.) Perhaps you saved someone’s life, and he feels the need to offer himself up as your bodyguard in return.

You initially won’t have any money, and tagalongs will either require: (1) coins for food, gear maintenance, and hazard pay; or vice versa, for the player to get coins as a mercenary, and handle it when he gets stiffed because of payer death or hate or dishonesty; (2) interest in where you’re going or a sense of duty or obligation, or (3) happens to be going there too, met either by coincidence or from talking to other NPCs. There should be a big pilgrimage to Windhelm for the Feast of the Dead for weeks before the appropriate day, and then a return back, both of which flood the roads with travelers. (A person can be a pilgrim to the Feast of the Dead.)

My point is, ONE isn’t very satisfactory. Two or three wouldn’t be. Why not cook up randomly generated no-name mercs-for-hire in infinite supply? We all know that when someone is rich, they’re powerful. If you got the cash, you should be able to surround yourself with hired guns. If you’re saving the world, that should make you “important.”

To preserve any sense of game balance (leads to challenge leads to accomplishment leads to fun), quantity of follower must be inverse to quality (eg, conscripts have few HP, and no silver or magical weapons to hit undead or magical creatures).

At least in Morrowind (and I fear I’d use that phrase often) you can Command any NPC into following you. If you’re powerful enough, you could have many NPC’s under your spell. As far as hiring goes, there’s only one merc. And you can find a little tagalong help here and there on quests. As far as pets go, it’s useless in vanilla Morrowind. Little critters.

Dungeons & Dragons based your maximum number of henchmen on your Charisma. This was always acceptable to me. And their henchmen didn’t stop at just ONE. I think at 25 (god-like) you could have up to 50. Sure, 50′s a lot – but let’s put it in terms of average mortal man – ten to twenty. Isn’t that better than one? And pets in D&D were a dime a dozen. If you had the cash, you could buy guard dogs, war horses, anything. Buy a dozen chickens if you want to. (But ask your DM first if he’ll give you XP for killing those.)

No XP, no leveling. With appropriate buffs, not sure its needed. We’ll see how long this lasts.

Pets in Fallout would CERTAINLY add to the atmosphere. You’re creeping up a dark alley with your faithful dog, and suddenly he growls at something. You don’t know what’s up ahead, but now you’re ready for anything. He charges up ahead for the attack, and surprise! You’re attacked from behind, by another creepy something. Pets would mean a lot in a world like this. Without pets, there really is no one else you can really trust.

I like this.

princess_stomper: Each has to have a script on them to give specific instructions – first of all to stop them getting stuck behind the furniture (Grumpy’s “warping”), then to tell them to copy the player in any of their actions (e.g. levitating, water breathing), or whether to move aside if they’re in the way, and then to give options on combat style.

Most of this is abstracted away by text, which only occasionally reports what companions are doing.

Then you get to what you really need from a companion. To really make it worthwhile, you need personality as well as functionality. Oblivion touched on this with Mazoga the Orc but that was quite a brief if memorable encounter. The really good companions – of the likes of the aforementioned Emma ‘n’ Grumpy/Qarl/Kateri mods – have a simply staggering amount of work behind them, requiring far more resources than Bethesda are likely to allocate to something like this. Example: Kateri’s Julan companion mod for Morrowind had two thousand lines of dialogue. That’s just one companion. Now start talking about six, and you see why they might not be so willing to incorporate such a feature.

dagoth jeff: You don’t need thousands of lines to present a player with a viable party member. Who cares that he/she doesn’t comment on the weather? If you can give out a few commands (stay/follow/fight with melee/fight with missiles) and access their inventory, isn’t that enough?

princess_stomper: The more scripts that you throw in, the more processing power is required, which restricts the number of people who can enjoy the game. In order to please you, they’d have to pee off everyone else, effectively speaking. Plus, even though you might want to have half a dozen meat shields in tow, in practice they get in the way, get stuck behind the furniture, get lost, and all sorts … really and honestly you’re better off with just one detailed companion who is actually any use.

The trouble is that we’re not agreeing here on what good companions are.  Let’s think about two mods here that I’ve played:  (1) One had dozens of companions, each of which had various point-and-click options in which to increase that companion’s disposition towards you and move the relationship up to the next level. It was all fiddling with menus, with just information about classes and types – there was no reaction, no individualisation and no personality. This mod was one person’s idea of a role-playing style that left me absolutely cold. I had zero interest in playing anything like this, because all I was doing was pushing buttons. There was no sense of engaging properly in a conversation.  This is exactly what a lot of people are looking for. (2) Then there is another mod, in which there is one companion for your character to build a relationship with. It took one person one full year to write. The mods with companions of that type are mods where the companion is the centre and focus of that mod – not just casual strangers with whom the player may or may not approach to join their party.  As far as I know, most games only have one companion of this type. I know my friend goes on about KOTOR, but she only ever mentions one character. I don’t know of any adventure RPGs that have multitudes of fully fledged companions – only of the depth-free variety that left me cold with the other mod.