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Part of a series with my comments on Shades’ Skyrim backstory, for use in Spearthane. I may protect some of these posts if I detail specific quests.
I imagine TES V: Skyrim with these profiles for the city-states, and the main quest weaving these eight stories together into one comprehensive unit and one ending from eight viewpoints.
I’m not so interested in the one-ending approach. (1) If I write a sequel, I am comfortable either picking one ending, or as many as are not flatly contradictory, so no dragon breaks here. (2) I honestly think it’s lame and a waste of time to bother writing a story that can only end one way. If you’re creative enough to branch the story, why render the branches meaningless by merging them all together at the end?
That would keep the story consistent, but after the main quest there would be two or three city-states that would be no longer operational to the same state as before: governments would be deposed, sections of towns and the countryside would be knocked away, and large populations eliminated through genocide.
I plan an ethnocide in the backstory already (see From Aldmora to Empire), so I’d rather not add a genocide of a current people. These things take a long time to happen, and even if the empire is over the people are still used to its conventions.
The start of the game would be within a month of the Oblivion Crisis. The end of the game will fluctuate depending on the player’s speed, but the generally accepted finish will be listed in TES VI as two and a half to three years later. I’d prefer TES VI to take place at about the same time as Skyrim, but on the opposite side of the empire for perspective.
I agree with the general time frame. I’d like there to be enough time elapsed that the dust has settled, the enemy confirmed dispatched or just gone, and people are starting about their ordinary lives again. I don’t want so much time that any significant personal or political fallout from the crisis has been resolved.
Generally the main quest begins when you are accepted into a knightly organization in the service of a King or Queen.
I’d rather this be the midpoint or intermediate goal of your service to a Hold, to set up a final few public missions. There are many things you can do, to ingratiate yourself with a court and build your reputation, that can really benefit from being a nobody whom they may plausibly deny they know. Also, when you betray them, they can just cut their losses.
From the descriptions of the eight you can fairly well guess the kinds of missions they would send you on, but the standard guilds need to be worked into the storyline somewhat as well. The guilds I hope would rely on random quests and make these special quests available during the course of the main quest as you progress through it, such as the Dark Brotherhood.
I really like the idea of being able to kill anyone in the game, and I have no problem breaking quests as a result of random DB/MT assignments. Since I want there to be many paths through the game, and many different endings, shutting out even entire quest lines because you killed the wrong people is fine with me.
Three of the leaders of the city-states would be assassinated before three quarters of the main quest are over, as well as a dozen nobles, a score of political figures and many inhibitors. Not all of these need to be brotherhood jobs, but the flexible means of death would allow you to hire them for the job, do it yourself, or send your underlings depending on the message you want to convey.
+1 for vast changes to the political landscape, +1 for flexibility, +1 for actually feeling like you’re in charge.
The Fighters guild should be swamped with work in this post-crisis environment (not picking flowers), the Mages have ample opportunity for research and experimentation under several of the city-states,
Their first-hand experience against daedra should provide them with new battle strategies and tactics, and materials to study. We’ll have to decide whether the new liminal barriers sent back the daedra in fixed, equipment form as well. I’m inclined to say yes, otherwise daedric stuff will be everywhere, and that’s way too cliche and uber for me without a very good reason.
and the Thieves of course have never been in a better position to steal goods and information. Witch covens will largely be covered by Jsashe and fringe groups, necromancy has several footholds already in Skyrim but I would include soulsnare areas in mountain valleys where the dead can roam freely as part of the Necromancer’s faction.
I’m so over the good v evil Necromancer v Mages’ Guild storyline. I’d much rather incorporate and discuss the problems that arise as a result of letting only White Arts back in a new Department of Necromancy (eg, re-incorporate the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld).
Imperial legions and navy units operate with diminishing effectiveness as the Empire shows signs of crumbling and desertion becomes more widespread.
Excellent point. I like how subtle indications of a loosening of authority and discipline grow to justify big upheavals, coups, and revolutions. Even better if you can justify a bloodless coup.
Followup
My deal with the one ending is that the outside will see it as one ending, but depending on which of the city-states you are aligned with at that moment you see the ending differently. For some of the people you align with, your reward is death. For others you’re made a top advisor to the ruler, the head of their knightly guild, or chief liaison. Others in between you have a chance to run for your life to escape Skyrim, or just switch your allegiance.
The branches aren’t meaningless, but they would be covered up by the person who takes control of the country. History is written by the winner, and those who disagree with the winner are rolled over. Thus, the one ending.
So, depending on which faction wins, they each have a different way they treat you? Some glorify you, some kill you, and several steps between? This seems right. On top of this, I assume, which faction wins, and whether a faction wins, is determined by your actions. I’d like to have more ways to end the game than having a faction win. For examples, see the first three italicized paragraphs on this page. By ending, I mean the end of the political changes in the game, not necessarily the game itself.
The genocide is reflective of the racial tensions. Events will trigger spouts of racism where people of certain races are persecuted and tortured in the streets. Roving bands of troops coming upon travels who aren’t like them could kill them quickly and just ride on with nobody knowing who did it.
Good examples of realistic medieval behavior, but not of genocide. Full-on genocide still seems like overkill to me, without powerful motivations.
I like to work on the basis of motivations. Why, in this particular settlement, do they take the opportunity of the lack of Imperial authority to prosecute or even persecute a particular race? How does that community take it, strike back, or flee? How do the surrounding communities, of both races, admire or condemn stoicism, support or arm retribution, or house or take advantage of refugees? I think this can work on a small scale, as specific communities conflict, since Eastmarch won’t support little utopias like Bleaker’s Way when we have Nord aggression against the Redoran.
When I said the main quest starts when you join a knightly organization, I wasn’t meaning that you could join one when you choose to. They have to invite you in, so to get that invitation you must find a way to prove yourself useful. Winning tournaments would be one way, playing your connections to get to talk to the king is another way. Becoming well liked by the minor nobles can get you noticed as well, being famous for your powerful magical talents, being ruthlessly efficient at gathering information or resources. Effectively you would have to be established in the world before they would even consider you. A term of military service is always a plus, and the military would have units available for all kinds of characters.
I see lots of little quests here, with some interesting and natural motivations. If the object of most of these quests is to warn, impoverish, suppress, or hurt another faction, so much the better, since you will largely be able to build up your rep with one faction only by ticking off another. I don’t think a completely zero-sum game is necessary, though.
For example, military service against the Redoran should help your rep with a couple Holds, which can be mitigated by espionage for the Redoran against the very Holds that employ you. So, say a strike force from Windhelm cuts a bloody swath east from Dunmeth Pass, but are stopped and all-but-slaughtered by an ambush. Your battle prowess determined how many Dunmer died (for which your rep increases with some Holds), and your treachery caused the Nords’ death (for which your rep increases with the Redoran). (Oh, and Mephala/Sithis likes you bunches for the treachery and all the deaths.)
The deal with the necromancers isn’t an us vs them situation with the mage’s guild. I’m thinking of the Daggerfall system where the temple is the (in the eyes of the people) good guys, the necromancers are the bad guys, and the mages guild is comprised of both. The only time the mages guild would be against the necromancers is if the necromancers (who will mostly be guild members anyway) cause trouble somewhere or if a religious magician feels like stirring the pot. The mages guild I see is out for control, and the agendas it holds are the works of the individual guild leaders.
I like this better than the one-dimensional “because Traven said so” agenda of the Mages’ Guild in Oblivion. Have you read The Exodus and Dark Arts on Retrial? I’d like to incorporate both in Spearthane, and re-admit the Mages’ Guild in Olenveld into the restored Department of Necromancy. I think this still permits much conflict with those necromancers too indebted to the dark arts to take advantage of the Mages’ Guild’s white-art amnesty. It should also more clearly define the PC’s character for siding with the truly selfish or enslaved servants of the Worm God Mannimarco.
Each citizen belongs to a faction, and has a reputation. When that citizen dies, the corresponding faction blames your presence, and your reputation with that faction suffers by the reputation of the deceased.
For example:
The faction of Uriel is Haafinheim Partisan. The reputation of Uriel is 1. [These two sentences are actually code for the game. I love Inform 7.]
9:18 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim 0, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.
Uriel just bleeds.
…
9:23 am >z
Time passes.Uriel just bleeds.
Uriel dies.
9:24 am >help rep
unemployed 0, mage 0, fighter 0, rogue 0, merchant 0, craftsman 0, undead 0, ruler 0, army guard 0, farmer 0.unaligned 0, Eastmarch 0, Falkreath 0, Haafinheim -1, High Rock 0, Imperial 0, Northshore 0, Pale 0, Reach 0, Redoran 0, Rift 0, White Hold 0, Winter Hold 0.
Added a repute command to report your reputation. In this example, I backstabbed, looted, bound, and killed someone in a faction, and shouted myself from a city to a village.
9:22 am >repute
Army guard.
Assassin.
Rogue.
Tongue.Disliked in Haafinheim.
You have a reputation with each skill, group, or faction.
The 14 skills are unemployed [beggars], alchemist, army guard, assassin, craftsman, fighter, healer, mage, merchant, reader, rogue, ruler, tongue, and undead.
The 13 factions are unaligned [mediators], Eastmarch Partisan, Falkreath Partisan, Haafinheim Partisan, High Rock Partisan, Imperial Partisan, Northshore Partisan, Pale Partisan, Reach Partisan, Redoran Partisan, Rift Partisan, White Hold Partisan, and Winter Hold Partisan.
The 13 groups are ungrouped [negotiators], Mage’s Guild, Necromancers, Imperial Legion, Bandits, Dark Brotherhood, Morag Tong, Fighter’s Guild, Divine Clerics, Elder Council, College Faculty, Thieves’ Guild, and Greybeards.
Gothic 3 bandit/mage and orc/druid playthroughs by Absinthe82, which accomplish both of two opposing quests.
Nonlinear faction start, player evolution main quest, and faction agenda side quests by Tyrion1.
Supply and demand economy, crime, merchant characters by Rhekarid.
A definite step towards roleplaying.
9:17 am >help me
You can seek help about status, fame and infamy, chaos and order, good and evil, which directions to go, combat, commands, and tone in conversation.For more information about the game, see http://spearthane.wordpress.com/
9:18 am >help tone
act … sets a tone to your part of conversations. The tones are dominant, actively submissive, passively submissive, angry, fearful, defensive, aggressive, suspicious, relaxed, tense, happy, hunting, and playful. Some people respond differently to certain tones, or only respond to a specific tone.9:19 am >help act
act … sets a tone to your part of conversations. The tones are dominant, actively submissive, passively submissive, angry, fearful, defensive, aggressive, suspicious, relaxed, tense, happy, hunting, and playful. Some people respond differently to certain tones, or only respond to a specific tone.9:20 am >act stupid
That’s not a tone you can put across to an animal. You’re currently relaxed.9:21 am >ask jocien about me
The census-taker requests, “Please tell me your name, usual whereabouts, age, race, and trade.”9:22 am >act fearful
Your tone is now fearful.9:23 am >ask jocien about me
The census-taker explains, “Look, I’m not trying to draft you. I just need your name, usual whereabouts, age, race, and trade for the tally.”
I’m pretty proud of this: I feel it’s a definite step towards roleplaying, since you can set a general mood for your character, and people (that are coded to) will respond differently.
This is one of those features that takes a lot of work (to write out different responses to the same topics), but adds a lot of depth and replayability to the game. For example, if you ask someone about the same thing in a different ways they might offer to help you, kill you, send you on a quest, offer you membership in their faction, or ignore you completely.
Each of these options may preclude the others, so this is another mechanism for branching storylines and (ir)revocable acts that help change how people perceive you, along with faction rep, alignment, and general fame and infamy.
From a thread on the Bethesda boards.
Crni Vuk: No fighting Zombies anymore PLEASE! We got enough of them … seriously. If they are just with you to give fire support I will not care about them. Give Characters – Voice *Dont let them sound all the same. Boring – Comments *They should have opinions about your actions and express them! – Personality *Good characters might not like and follow you if youre doing bad things. – Realistic movement *Why should females walk/act like males … – Optic *If it is possible to give them weapons and armor they should use it and it should be possible to see that as player. (- Maybe own quests you can do with them)More inteligent, more comments, own oppinions, own unique apearance and personalities. People should remember them. No one says that you (the player) has to fall in love to them even when I would think it is a nice adition but at least they should start conversations with you when something happens they either really like or disslike. Maybe a comment from time to time like the first time you use a Power Armor or when they blow up some head from hard enemies.)
bronzepoem: I won’t hear the funny argument between teammates… Most importment, they should be interactive with whale the environment. Talking with other teammates,with NPCs, have their opinion on a quest or a affair. A benemoth may be discriminated by some unfair NPC, of course he have his approach to deal with such things. A native teammate will be surpirised on high-tech item. Also a hooligans teammate must like some corruption citys, and he won’t like protagonists behave too honourous. That is fallout style, which ten year old game could give us.
Vainglorious: I agree. The vast majority of characters in Morrowind and Oblivion simply regurgitated the same generic topics, although quest-givers usually had interesting stuff to say. The number of truly unique and memorable characters was fairly small, though, compared to the original Fallout games… or at least, that’s the way it seemed from my point of view. Sure, in F1 and F2, there were generic townspeople. But of those NPCs you could talk to, almost all of them had memorable, distinct, and unique personalities, and they didn’t share any generic dialog with each other. Even bartenders and mechanics had interesting personalities. Also significantly, the companions had personalities and back stories. Sulik was my favorite… he had a funky accent, a gnarly ‘tude, a cool back story, and a unique way of phrasing sentences. That is for me one of the biggest indicators that Fallout had more memorable characters than Morrowind/Oblivion: I can easily remember Sulik, the village Elder, Tandy, Myron, Marcus, Cassidy, First Citizen Lynette… but I can barely remember any NPCs from Oblivion, or even Morrowind, which I am playing as we speak. I really hope they give a lot of the NPCs in F3 unique and memorable dialog and personalities. No more foot-long dialog menus with the same thirty topics, to which fifty other NPCs will give you the exact same response.
Daigoro: Not only is this the loss of multiple, intruiging party members, and the depth that their interection added, but it also nerfs Charisma in a major way. Eliminating the limitation for NPCs based on CH is reducing the potence of CH. That’s neutering it.
Since I’m not doing stats yet, number of teammates depends on whether you’ve earned them, whether they’ll work together (a new unpopular one could make all the old ones leave, eg Adoring Fan), whether you keep them happy (eg, some might have care or feeding requirements), whether you avoid attacking them or getting into situations where they become (or are forced to become) aggressive to you, whether they stay alive against the enemies you fight (need to make enemies with multiple attacks target friends too, and all enemies target you if you attack in around, otherwise your buddies), and whether they accept your alignment (this will do the most to limit powerful sentient friends). With all these limitations, why use a stat roll against a number that only reflects min-maxing at the start of the game, or grinding up skill levels with boring repetition of non-plot-advancing actions? Anything that changes the game from role-playing to stat management should be avoided. I’ve been able to do a lot by linking health to stealth, that avoids having to program in levels, dexterity, and thief-skill percentage tables.
Maia: I really hope that there is on-the-fly Hold/follow me command for the NPCs. Every game that lacked it just drove me up the wall. I still have nightmares
about (temporary) followers in MW, the Gothics and even Fallouts that would attack something totally out of our league or annihilate my PC with area spells/weapons.
Done.
dagoth jeff: There should be no limit to companions. In such a trashed world, we’ll need something to make us feel less alone. Of course, having such an option early on would ruin the overall gaming experience, and mood settings.
The hunting buddy is in there early now just for testing. Once I write his intro, he’ll move somewhere else.
But money talks LOUDLY. Anyone physically able, and fit for the position would surely offer themselves up for hire (if asked.) Perhaps you saved someone’s life, and he feels the need to offer himself up as your bodyguard in return.
You initially won’t have any money, and tagalongs will either require: (1) coins for food, gear maintenance, and hazard pay; or vice versa, for the player to get coins as a mercenary, and handle it when he gets stiffed because of payer death or hate or dishonesty; (2) interest in where you’re going or a sense of duty or obligation, or (3) happens to be going there too, met either by coincidence or from talking to other NPCs. There should be a big pilgrimage to Windhelm for the Feast of the Dead for weeks before the appropriate day, and then a return back, both of which flood the roads with travelers. (A person can be a pilgrim to the Feast of the Dead.)
My point is, ONE isn’t very satisfactory. Two or three wouldn’t be. Why not cook up randomly generated no-name mercs-for-hire in infinite supply? We all know that when someone is rich, they’re powerful. If you got the cash, you should be able to surround yourself with hired guns. If you’re saving the world, that should make you “important.”
To preserve any sense of game balance (leads to challenge leads to accomplishment leads to fun), quantity of follower must be inverse to quality (eg, conscripts have few HP, and no silver or magical weapons to hit undead or magical creatures).
At least in Morrowind (and I fear I’d use that phrase often) you can Command any NPC into following you. If you’re powerful enough, you could have many NPC’s under your spell. As far as hiring goes, there’s only one merc. And you can find a little tagalong help here and there on quests. As far as pets go, it’s useless in vanilla Morrowind. Little critters.
Dungeons & Dragons based your maximum number of henchmen on your Charisma. This was always acceptable to me. And their henchmen didn’t stop at just ONE. I think at 25 (god-like) you could have up to 50. Sure, 50’s a lot – but let’s put it in terms of average mortal man – ten to twenty. Isn’t that better than one? And pets in D&D were a dime a dozen. If you had the cash, you could buy guard dogs, war horses, anything. Buy a dozen chickens if you want to. (But ask your DM first if he’ll give you XP for killing those.)
No XP, no leveling. With appropriate buffs, not sure its needed. We’ll see how long this lasts.
Pets in Fallout would CERTAINLY add to the atmosphere. You’re creeping up a dark alley with your faithful dog, and suddenly he growls at something. You don’t know what’s up ahead, but now you’re ready for anything. He charges up ahead for the attack, and surprise! You’re attacked from behind, by another creepy something. Pets would mean a lot in a world like this. Without pets, there really is no one else you can really trust.
I like this. 
princess_stomper: Each has to have a script on them to give specific instructions – first of all to stop them getting stuck behind the furniture (Grumpy’s “warping”), then to tell them to copy the player in any of their actions (e.g. levitating, water breathing), or whether to move aside if they’re in the way, and then to give options on combat style.
Most of this is abstracted away by text, which only occasionally reports what companions are doing.
Then you get to what you really need from a companion. To really make it worthwhile, you need personality as well as functionality. Oblivion touched on this with Mazoga the Orc but that was quite a brief if memorable encounter. The really good companions – of the likes of the aforementioned Emma ‘n’ Grumpy/Qarl/Kateri mods – have a simply staggering amount of work behind them, requiring far more resources than Bethesda are likely to allocate to something like this. Example: Kateri’s Julan companion mod for Morrowind had two thousand lines of dialogue. That’s just one companion. Now start talking about six, and you see why they might not be so willing to incorporate such a feature.
dagoth jeff: You don’t need thousands of lines to present a player with a viable party member. Who cares that he/she doesn’t comment on the weather? If you can give out a few commands (stay/follow/fight with melee/fight with missiles) and access their inventory, isn’t that enough?
princess_stomper: The more scripts that you throw in, the more processing power is required, which restricts the number of people who can enjoy the game. In order to please you, they’d have to pee off everyone else, effectively speaking. Plus, even though you might want to have half a dozen meat shields in tow, in practice they get in the way, get stuck behind the furniture, get lost, and all sorts … really and honestly you’re better off with just one detailed companion who is actually any use.
The trouble is that we’re not agreeing here on what good companions are. Let’s think about two mods here that I’ve played: (1) One had dozens of companions, each of which had various point-and-click options in which to increase that companion’s disposition towards you and move the relationship up to the next level. It was all fiddling with menus, with just information about classes and types – there was no reaction, no individualisation and no personality. This mod was one person’s idea of a role-playing style that left me absolutely cold. I had zero interest in playing anything like this, because all I was doing was pushing buttons. There was no sense of engaging properly in a conversation. This is exactly what a lot of people are looking for. (2) Then there is another mod, in which there is one companion for your character to build a relationship with. It took one person one full year to write. The mods with companions of that type are mods where the companion is the centre and focus of that mod – not just casual strangers with whom the player may or may not approach to join their party. As far as I know, most games only have one companion of this type. I know my friend goes on about KOTOR, but she only ever mentions one character. I don’t know of any adventure RPGs that have multitudes of fully fledged companions – only of the depth-free variety that left me cold with the other mod.
You dont neccessarily need to have a different MQ for each race, but different stroy routes would be great. If an item is in a “Dunmer Only” Night club and you’re an orc, you might have to go in swinging an axe or sneak in.Not being allowed to stay the night in an Inn owned by an Anti-Argonian person might force you to ask for room and board at someone’s house, and they might require a favor like vandalizing a neighbor’s property which forces you down yet another path. Or you might opt to camp in the surrounding woods, at which point you meet a small band of fellow outcast beastfolk who want you to help them terrorize the town.
Being whisked away to start the game in a slave camp isnt a terrible idea, infact all the above ar ok ideas, as long as eventually you end up on the same MQ, in the same yet unique story line.
The whole point of this type of “dynamic plot” is REPLAYABILITY. If you ever play Arcanum (an awesome RPG) you will understand the value of REPLAYABILITY. Going through a game and having the anticipation of different experiences depending on who you are and the choices you make each time is a huge advantage.
I understand that a lot of people like to RP and so, playing through the same Oblivion over and over is ok with them, but not everyone loves RPing. AND even for RPers, the garuntee of different experiences should be something to look forward to.
Every time I play through the game, I would love the experience to be unique. Objectively unique.
I can remember when I played arcanum the 3rd time, as soon as I got to Tarant I went straight to my favorite pub, and I was screamed at and told to get the [censored] out. you know what was different? that 3rd time I decided to be a half-orc. I thought that was the coolest thing I had ever experienced in a video game. (although this could (and should) be avoidable/negotialbe by simply working hard to have high charisma and personality traits.
Also, dragon, the Oblivion construction set and the “plugin” concept proved that differing plot lines doesnt take up lots of space on a CD. You’re not really creating NEW material. just different story lnes, different dialogue, etc.
For there to be different tracks, each track must in some way advance the main plot, close the scene in one of several different ways. Scene ends when thing restored or thing destroyed or thing given or thing tossed in the sea or thing kept; however it got there, stolen from living person, looted from corpse, stolen from nightstand, bought, bartered, given as reward for favor; but how it was retrieved and how it was disposed of determines some thing about the environment, politics, factions rep, quests available. Similar considerations for non-fetch quests.
Some things you do should be relatively fatal to the main or many side quests: for example, if you kill a child of a certain race, no-one of that race will talk with you to give you a quest, instead they’ll actively hunt you down you until you’re dead. Even attacking a child of a certain race should make everyone in that race aggressive towards you.
I sure hope there will be many easter eggs to seek out in the wilderness. I enjoy exploring the wilderness also. It’s one of the things I love about non-linear video games. I see that mountain off in the distance, and I can go climb it. Leviticus
Include the example code that lets you see other rooms, esp. while in the overland.
For Skyrim if they have it there, I would like the npc’s to have a greater sense of hospitality. If the winters can kill or harm, they could take greater concern for their fellow man on the road. The Eskimos were supposed to let a traveler snuggle with their wives in the night for warmth, kindness of that sort. Also just knocking on the door and asking for a place to rest should be an option, you need to heal sometime and you might have a chance to return the favor. At times when you have a home you could let people in to have a nap or offer them care. It can increase your disposition with the people you help, and give you a good reputation. Shades
Check for consistency with Viking rules for hospitality. Greeks were very big on this. The rules would be strictly followed in isolated halls, well-regarded in villages, usual practice (especially for your factions) in towns, and apply only to your factions in cities. “The player has a number called faction reputation.”
The names of the Five Hundred Companions are still recited, every Thirteenth of Sun’s Dawn at the Feast of the Dead in Windhelm, as the Nords link their current people to their ancestors.
This rite is a pale shadow of the Falmer “Naming the Passed”, which channels their ancestor’s wight-magic (no soul-gems) into objects of their finest craftsmanship: you have to know the name of the dead, what magicka imbued the body of the dead, and match the magic to an appropriate item. Falmer started regularly recycling their spirits for the Night of Tears, when they needed strength to commit genocide. The Falmer fell because these ancestor spirits were no longer available to guide them as a race. The Falmer queen who made this decision became a banshee, who protects the secrets and story.
